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So I've recently gotten all into DDR home hard pad design. I'm rebuilding a halfassed hand made wood and metal pad from the first wave of home DDR crap. So far, I've found some stuff I like about it and some stuff I hate, and I'm working on a design of my own.
I figure I can share what I learn with y'all.
Can I get some info on the current design of the DDI pad? Morley, did you say you were going with a foil/foam design?
I'm working on a setup that uses these switches:
www.itcelectronics.com/pdtl.asp
Probably either 2 or 4 per panel, not sure how many will be needed yet. They have them at Frys for about $6.
As far as the carpentry, I'm looking at a modified version of this design:
web.archive.org/web/200201.../v2gal.html
Corrected, as the arrow spacing on that one is wrong.
Comments? Infor on the current DDI design? Where are you with that?
Cheers,
Reed.
I figure I can share what I learn with y'all.
Can I get some info on the current design of the DDI pad? Morley, did you say you were going with a foil/foam design?
I'm working on a setup that uses these switches:
www.itcelectronics.com/pdtl.asp
Probably either 2 or 4 per panel, not sure how many will be needed yet. They have them at Frys for about $6.
As far as the carpentry, I'm looking at a modified version of this design:
web.archive.org/web/200201.../v2gal.html
Corrected, as the arrow spacing on that one is wrong.
Comments? Infor on the current DDI design? Where are you with that?
Cheers,
Reed.
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 2:05 PMIan's the lead on designing the pads, but I do know that we're going to use magnetic reed switches. They're sealed and thus much more resistant to dust than anything else we can think of. And they're dirt cheap, we've got a whole bagful sitting on our workbench. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 2:45 PMCool. Maybe I should look into those. Could you get me a manufacturer and part number or a link so I can try see one?
I forgot to mention in my OP, but but the reason my friend and I decided to go with the lever switchs for our current pad design is that the steel lever arm that activates the switch is deformable and can be bent to hold whatever shape you need. This make it really easy for us tune the switch by bending the arm where it contacts the plexi pad.
Any idea what the sensitivity of the reed switchs is? How much pressure is needed to activate them?
I'm also curious about what the pad surface will be constructed from on the DDI pad? I'm guessing plexi won't work due to the heat? -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 3:04 PMI believe both thick plexi and metal are involved, but Ian's really the one to ask. I imagine he'll be by here before too long.
The reed switches are activated by proximity to a magnet. So we mount small magnets under the pads in some way that allows us to adjust their position, giving us the tuning ability that you're getting by bending the lever arm. The ones we have look very roughly like this:
www.otherpower.com/images/nmo0003.jpg
but I dunno where Ian got them.
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 4:20 PMIt's probably best we don't talk about where I got the reed switches, but you can find similar parts at Digi-key or any other decent online electronics supplier.
I know that authentic DDR pads use reed switches, four per button. That's generally what I'm going for also. I think the spring in the buttons will probably be maintained using strips of neoprene, but we'll see what works.
The top (transparent) level of the buttons will be made of polycarbonate (brand name: Lexan) which can resist higher temps than acrylic. Really, they don't have to be too fireproof, since we won't be shooting at the player's feet. The non-button squares are probably going to the ol' metal-wrapped wood. I wanted to go with aluminum diamond plate, but we decided that the money we'd be putting into that would be better spent on more propane.
The whole thing will be bolted to a welded metal frame. I'm using steel angle salvaged from old bedframes right now, but I think square tube might have been a better choice.
The buttons might be 100% polycarbonate, or we might put a perforated steel plate underneath them to keep them from breaking. We're not expecting people to be gentle with these pads at all. We also plan to put lights underneath the buttons.
Have you built hard pads before? If so, I'd love to talk with you about it more... I've never made one of these, and I'd love to have one done in time for the party on the 4th. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Wed, May 25, 2005 - 4:45 PMSquare steel tubing isn't that expensive, even new. Alco sold me the 1"x2" tubes I used for my trike at about $30 for 20 feet.
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Thu, May 26, 2005 - 10:57 AMHey Ian,
Do arcade DDR machines seriously use magnetic reed switchs? Where'd you come by that info? I've been looking around for arcade sensor information. Konami's American arcade parts distributer is in SF, so I've been planning to go buy an arcade sensor to cut up, but if you already know about 'em, that'll save me $30.
Using magnets and reed switches sounds like a real pain in the ass to deal with, but while I can come up with things that would likely work better, I can't come up with anything as cheap and as sealed. If you can get them working well, I'll be really interested.
One word of advice: Try to build the sensor cavities pretty deep. If you can get two inches of cavity depth, you'll have a at least three other options if you need to try something else. You can always put a spacer in to make it shallower.
Kick ass on using a welded steel frame. I'd love to learn about building stuff like that.
A question: What's your sensitivity goal for these? Hardcore DDR folk can total Prima Donnas about pad sensitivity. If you want help testing, I know (or rather know someone who knows) a couple Perfect Attack players who could give feedback on pad design and keep quiet about things. I've been getting help from them on my pad.
I haven't built hard pads before, just rewired and modified an existing hard pad. I've done a reasonable ammount of research, and hope to build one in a month or so after school and AIDS ride have settled down.
If you want a hand, I might have time this weekend and apparently have Monday off. I don't know how to weld yet, but I can solder some and am fairly handy in a general way.
Infodump of links follows:
Thread I started on DDR Freak asking about arcade sensors (how do they work, can I use them, etc...):
www.ddrfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php
Bootleg DDR Arcade Parts:
These are not original Konami parts, but they are made to fit the Konami Arcade Cabinet. I'm told they work well enough.
www.channelbeat.com/products...on_parts/
Including:
Arrow Pannels (probably not much more expensive than building your own):
www.channelbeat.com/products.../117.html
Non-Pad plates:
www.channelbeat.com/products.../126.html
Corner Brackets:
www.channelbeat.com/products.../116.html
Replacement sensors:
www.channelbeat.com/products.../115.html
That last part, the sensor, is sealed and durable. Also costs $10. It would be a great way to go, but sensors for one pad would run between $80 and $160. For doubles, that'd be $160-$320. Plus a couple spares, I figure. I'm tempted, but maybe too spendy for your project.
Channel Beat has a minimum order of $100, but I'll be putting in an order sometime soon. If you want arrows, plates, brackets, or sensors, but less than $100 worth, let me know?
Pictures of DDR machine internals:
Standard DDR, full stage, both pads open:
www.ddrfreak.com/images/co...pen-lg.jpg
Standard DDR, one arrow panel open:
www.ddrfreak.com/images/co...pen-lg.jpg
Standard DDR, closeup on one sensor:
www.ddrfreak.com/images/co...ket-lg.jpg
DDR Solo, one arrow panel open (different sensor layout, uses 2 centered sensors, not four edge sensors):
www.indyddr.com/images/mis...rowopen.jpg
Huge pic of DDR Solo arrow panel internals:
xs.to/xs.php
Note: Thanks to Nicole, who found most of those pics for me.
Cheers,
Reed. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 8:29 PMHey, Reed. Thanks for all the info! This stuff is great!
So, now that the party's over, I'm working on the pads again. I have one frame welded up, and I'm waiting to start the other one til I have a working pad.
I did some experiments with the reed switches, and they're not sensitive enough. Honestly, I don't know where I got this reed switch idea. Someone posted a figure from the DDR patent in that thread you started, though, and it looks like the real pads use what is basically switch tape (like that yellow tape that you push on the bus to request a stop).
Switch tape is rather expensive, though, so I've decided not to use it.
So, I'm back to microswitches. That's fine. They make a clicking noise, but I don't really care, and they can handle enough current to run lights all on their own.
First, I have to wonder: why are you choosing to use such expensive switches, and why the roller style? It seems like you'd be able to get switch actuation with much less button deflection using the standard type.
People seem to have problems with microswitches failing, due to the fact that they're not designed to handle a 180lb drunk guy stomping on them directly. Not suprising. I have a solution in mind that's tolerant to the plastic flexing and allows the total arrow deflection to be somewhat configurable:
I can mount the switches so that they "float" - that is, they're attached to the end of a torsion spring, with a stop to keep them from moving above a certain height. The pressure required to begin bending that spring is greater than the pressure necessary to activate the switch, but less than the pressure necessary to damage it.
The arrow itself can be supported separatley, probably with foam around the edges to keep the playa out. I could also add extra springs if necessary, but I think some soft foam will do just fine. I can get adhesive strips with all different compressibility ratings from McMaster-Carr, too.
Next question: I want to put lights in this pad, which means I can only support the pad arrow at the edges, and it has to be at least somewhat transparent. I was thinking that for the arrow I could possibly use two pieces of 1/8" polycarbonate (lexan), with the graphic sandwiched between them. That might be too thin, though. I could also use something rather thick, like 1/4" on the bottom, and then a really thin sheet, maybe .020" to cover the graphic. It's just that polycarbonate is really expensive and I'd rather not spend too much on it.
I could also do polycarbonate for the top section, and acrylic for the bottom. I'm not sure if I'd get any strength vs price advantage, though. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 8:46 PMOh. I guess I could glue the graphic to the arrow too, but I'd like to avoid that if possible, since it'd be nice to be able to change it later (especially if the playa messes it up)
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Tue, June 14, 2005 - 12:46 PMHey Ian,
Sounds like the party went great! Totally bummed I missed it, but when I got up at 4am on Sunday to start my ride, I was glad to have more than a couple hours sleep. Anyway, congrats to you, Morley, and everyone else!
The pads: I was kind of afraid that the reed switches might not work out, it seemed like kind of a tough design to make function, but luckilly there are a few other options.
Tape switch: Youch. I had assumed that this stuff was significantly less expensive than it is. You're right about the cost. I just spoke with these guys:
www.tapeswitch.com/products/contflex.php
and they quoted me ~$300 for 40 feet of it.
(1 foot per side x 4 sides per sensor x 4 sensors per pad x 2 pads = 32 feet, plus extra...)
Also, it's actuation weight is 12 ounces, which could be kinda high, depending on how it's used.
I'm having them send me a sample of it anyway because I like playing with free stuff, but it obviously not ideal.
You could nearly get knock-off arcade sensors for that price.
Microswitches: Regarding the ones I've been talking about, I'm not sure I was terribly thoughtful in their selection. I basically walked around Radio Shack and Frys for a while and limited myself to the selection presented at those stores.
The things I liked about the switches I selected:
1) They have really good overtravel. After the switch has actuated, the lever arm can move a long way before it hits something, mashes the switch body, or anything else bad happens.
2) The actuation point seems reliable. They break at the same point in the travel every time.
3) Tuning them is very easy, and can be done easilly without hardware once the sensor is open. You just bend the levers.
4) I think I can mount them with the holes in the switch bodies, which will make them easy to swap out.
The lever: Yeah, it does exagerate switch travel, but since I can tune to -just- the point of actuation really easilly, that doesn't matter much. I beleive I can get high sensitivity at low button deflection actuation out of this, but haven't tested extensively yet. Obviously, the lever also helps enable the overtravel.
The roller: You're right, not needed. It seemed like a good idea for reasons that turned out not to matter, which I won't bother going into.
Your "float" design concept is really interesting. I take it you're talking about a button switch like this:
www.radioshack.com/product.asp
(or maybe a slightly large version) mounted to a spring?
I bet that could work pretty well. The only issue I see is adjusting the sensativity (height) of the switch. I figure that with button switches, you have to work with shims to tune sensitivity, and I don't like working with shims in general, especially stuff people are going to beat on. I especially wouldn't look forward to tuning with shims on the playa as the switches bed in.
Your feedback has got me thinking. Tonight I'm going to go to Frys and get smaller, cheaper , non-roller versions of the lever switches, and play with those. I think I can use them to build a cost effective pad that trips the sensors at minimal panel deflection but allows for significant panel overtravel (so you don't need a spring). I'll report back.
Nicole says we should think about using foil like everyone else seems to, but I'd really rather treat that as a last resort.
Noise: If you listen carefully, the arcade pads click too. Why? Maybe the metal bracket that fits over the sensor? But they do click. Regardless, you won't be able to hear microswitches on the playa.
Pad Support/Lighting:
Check the picture the DDR arcade machine sensor internals:
www.ddrfreak.com/images/co...pen-lg.jpg
On the real thing, they're only supported at the corners. The white plasticy things in the center of the sides are just there to push on the tape switch thing, they float free and provide no structural support. I have read that the arcade machine uses 1/4 material for the arrows, so my advice would be to use 1/4 inch polycarbonate supported at the corners the same way it is in the arcade machine.
Nicole advises that acrylic will just shatter and shouldn't be used for anything.
Unless you really want custom graphics for your pads, I'd really recomend thinking about buying replacement arrows from ChannelBeat. They apparently work well.
Personally? I want to simply paint the insides of my arrow cavities / put neat things in there to form an arrow. Then just leave the top of it clear. How about an arrow inside the cavity made of LEDs or something? Having the top clear and the arrow design inside can help with troubleshooting, polycarbonate replacement, and looks interesting.
I'm dragging the hard pad I'm testing stuff on and a second crappy one to my place in the Inner Sunset tonight. I've got permission to use it as a test bed for whatever. Wanna come by and try things on it? -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Tue, June 14, 2005 - 4:44 PMSo, the floating switch idea:
I planned to use standard microswitches, since the travel necessary to close them is really minimal, and they have a very positive action. I think I have an idea that won't require shims for adjustment. Let's see if I can explain it.
I want to use a leaf spring type arrangement, not a coil spring. The leaf is supported horizontally beneath the pad button. The switch is attached to one end of the leaf (with a little bracket), and the other end is attached to the pad.
The leaf is set to push the switch well above the level of the button. Then, there's a stop in there that limits its vertical travel. The height of the stop can be adjusted with a screw. Adjusting the sensitivity of a given switch should just be a matter of reaching under the pad and turning a screw. It'll be set up so that we have access to the switches from beneath, so that should be easy. I think the most difficult part might be drilling holes in the spring stock -- the metal will be quite hard.
Right now, I'm wondering if I should go with weather-resistant microswitches (expensive) or if I should just use cheap ones and make them easy to replace.
Arrow buttons: I just discovered that McMaster-Carr sells polycarbonate sheet for about 60% the price that TAP does, so I can make a sandwich of 1/4" clear, pad graphic, and 1/16" translucent and still be in my budget. That's perfect, since the translucent plastic will spread the light out so the graphic is more uniformly lit. I plan to use 12v incandescent taillight bulbs for the arrows, probably two or three per light, depending on the ratings of those switches. I'm using lamps and not white LEDs since they're much cheaper. Halogen bulbs won't work because they take too long to heat up.
We decided a while back to use custom arrow graphics, so I'd like to avoid using the standard DDR arrows. That said, they might be a little cheaper in the end, and it'd be a lot easier. I'll have to think about that one. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Fri, June 17, 2005 - 7:07 PMIan,
I really like your switch design, it sounds like a great idea.
Probably a lot of work to setup and build, but beind able adjust the sensor sensitivity without opening the pad will be a huge boon.
How many switches are you planning to install on each panel? If
you're planning to use more than one (four wouldn't be a bad idea) you should probably put an indicator LED on each switch next to it's screw adjuster. Then you can tune them all by simply placing a 5lb weight on the panel in question, turning the screws until all lights are just on, and then having someone remove the weight. As long as all lights immediately shut off, you should be good to go. Easiest setup I can imagine.
If you don't mind, once you've got that design polished up I may use it for the home pad I'm planning. It sounds really ideal.
The plan for the lighting and polycarbonate also sounds good. I know that Fry has LEDs with built in resistors that run off 12v, so it it'd be really easy to build a lighted system like you describe with the indicator LEDs I mentioned above.
I'm camping this weekend, but other than that I'd be glad to lend a hand. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: DDI Pad Design
Tue, June 21, 2005 - 1:06 AMHmmm. Throwing an LED in there sounds like a nice idea. I plan to use four switches per pad, so I might have to add a second diode to keep them from all lighting. Then again, maybe not. I'll think about that. It might also be easy if I end up getting DPST or DPDT switches, but that seems unlikely at this point. Still, even without the LEDs, tuning shouldn't be too hard because of the pad lighting. I'm going to make the lights turn on when the arrow is pushed. I know that's not how a real DDR machine works, but I figure it'd be pretty cool anyway, and I can do it cheap if I get miroswitches that can handle the current (shouldn't be hard -- the ones I'm looking at are rated for 10A).
Speaking of which, what do you think of these:
www.happcontrols.com/joystic...3301.htm
It's the best price I've been able to find so far, and they have spade connectors so they should be easy to replace if that's necessary -- no soldering or anything like that, just unplug. -
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Re: DDI Pad Design
Tue, June 21, 2005 - 1:50 PMI'm not the most knowledgable about switches, but those look entirely usable to me, and the price is certainly right. You'll be able to have a whole bag of spares. Happ is generally thought to sell nice stuff.
As for the LEDs, I think they would be worth the diodes just because they would be extremely neat, but you're right that they aren't necessary. The alternative is simply having someone step on only one part of the pad at a time. It would just be somewhat less exact and take a bit longer. (See article below.)
Also, I'm pretty sure that what you describe regarding pad lights is exactly how a DDR machine works. In fact, pad lights are typically the accepted way to tune the sensors on an arcade DDR machine:
pub131.ezboard.com/fddrjamz...owMessage
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